Should your church sing Jesus Culture & Bethel Music?
Should your church sing Jesus Culture & Bethel Music?
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Should we stop listening to the likes of Bethel, Hillsong
Should Your Church Sing Jesus Culture & Bethel Music
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Bethel Music; a work of Darkness – TruthKeepers
Pastor Explains Why After Researching, He No Longer Allows
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why do some churches not play bethel music
why do some churches not play bethel music - win
Being a musician, it’s really hard for me to get into mainstream Christian music.
I get a lot of criticism from other Christians because of what I like to listen to/play. I can’t help it that I like rock and metal music and most mainstream Christian poppy sounding music just doesn’t do it for me at all. I don’t see what’s wrong with any music that just maybe sounds a little dark. There are no lyrics so you can just give it whatever meaning you want right? I’ve almost quit playing music in the past because of the criticism I got from other Christians about what I listen to. This, like many other things in the church is probably just a religious and traditional bias with no real grounds for them to bash this type of music. Gods not always sunshine and rainbows. Music is an art and no one has every had any problem with Christian painters and artists creating dark visual art so why can’t his people make music that reflects the darker parts of life that we all must deal with? Why do Gods people want to pretend everything is blessings and prospering and gifts and sugar gum drops and it everything that isn’t unrealistically happy and positive. I can’t stand to listen to most of the music played in church except maybe some elevation and bethel(sometimes) and that’s about it and even that really just doesn’t do it for me musically. Satan doesn’t have all the good musicians, we are out there but just repressed by this ideology of all music must be this or that in order to be acceptable. God owns every interval and note in all of creation so if the lyrics are not anti God then how could the music possibly be? Makes no sense to me. Why do so many church leaders out there think everyone is the same and should enjoy the same music, hobbies etc? God didn’t create us to all be the same with the same likes and interests.
Lately I've been growing so disenchanted with worship and all that it brings. It's so hard for me to be on stage with people who have no motivation to push themselves musically, no boldness to try any small variation in leadership style, and no emotional connection with the congregation. Whatever happened to Colossians 3:23? Our congregation is quickly increasing in diversity yet worship team is all white people except for one brotha who is an amazing keys player and vocalist but usually just gets put on drums (which he's also very talented at but far from his full potential). And that's the whole theme here. Unrealized potential; safety and conservatism over progressiveness, boldness or adaptation. It drives me up the wall. I've been at this church for almost 8 years and worship has barely evolved at all. I only stick around here because there are other ministries where I am making a real difference (special ed and middle school guys). That and I feel like putting real effort into keys is becoming a lost art. Nobody cares about how much time I spent obsessing over that synth patch making sure it added just the right amount of energy and was perfectly balanced with every other part. "Why not just pick one part and we'll use tracks for the rest?" they ask. Because where's the authenticity in that? Nobody cares that I spent 6 hours practicing Sinking Deep so I could play it with a little rubato and still nail the tempo when the rest of the band comes in. Nobody cares that I figured out exactly how they did that stabby pad in "Let Go." We haven't even done a Y&F song yet in 2020. Meanwhile our WL acts like he has such a busy job when he literally has to pick 3 songs, get vocalists and a band organized, and set the key and tempo of each song. Maybe transcribe some lyrics and chords if we're doing a new song. OK I know there's more to it than that, but this is his full time job. There are no excuses for being unprepared on Sunday. We got to No Other Name last week and he hadn't even practiced his opening riff. It was too low to play on his guitar. I had to throw some distortion on a Rhodes and cover it for him. He had the whole week to tune another guitar to drop D and practice it. He is stiff as a board on stage and makes zero effort to show emotion or read the room. He just gets up and does his thing. And the whole industry is the same way. Want a synth sound out front? Put it in a track and make the keyboardist just play a pad. Can't risk having that screw up. Because Ableton honors God more than someone actually making a joyful noise. (Small edit: to be clear, I think tracks have their place, but should always be a last resort, or for sounds that can't be recreated live. They should never be used as a replacement for learning the song.) Hillsong and Bethel will keep manufacturing wonky theology and heartstring-tugging anthems to go along with it, but people will keep buying it to hear more of Joel Houston's brooding voice. (But God forbid anyone sees his navel because that would be distracting from a heart of worship.) Why is it that I need to go listen to The Ocean (an atheist metal band) to hear music with any emotion to it at all? I haven't listened to worship music for enjoyment in over a decade at this point, and I'm just about ready to stop playing it on stage too.
After the Swiss Miss pudding, the cheese danishes, and the hotel pool, the dramas were the funnest park of the district conventions growing. At least, the least boring. But come to think about it, they were awful aesthetically as an art form. First, why call them dramas? Why not plays? Of course, a “loaded language” is a hallmark of a cult. Not a church…but a Kingdom Hall. Not the New Testament, but the Christian Greek Scriptures. Not grace, but undeserved kindness, ect, ect. Cults will be cults and have different lingo. But still, it was a bit silly referring to what was essentially a church play as a drama. Then the whole concept of acting and lip syncing according to a prerecorded soundtrack can be cringeworthy in itself. But often, the voice acting was downright over the top, to the point it parodies itself. I still remember an overacted line burned into my brain from one of the last dramas I saw, where a young lady around 98 CE is attending a Roman play rather than go to a get-together with the Apostle John. Rather than say about the play she was going to see, “It’s a comedy.” She says, “It’s a Commm-O-deeeee!!!!” People in real life do not act like this. It was often apparent that the dramas were written by people who had no concept of how the real world functioned and had lived in their Bethel bubble for a long, long time. But then, what other kind of writing could one expect by someone living on a cult compound? For instance, in one drama, I think the modern day Prodigal son, the main character gets MY dream job straight after high school at a company that makes video games. Just like that. No college, no training nothing. Well then, Naughty Dog studio here I come. If only! The character arcs, plot, the scene structures, it was terrible writing all around. They made all sorts of classic mistakes and the story never evolved organically. And too often sugary music was used as a crutch to queue audience emotions that the writing and acting did not deserve in the least. Some in the audience would sob or at the very least mist up, but had the music been toned down, or muted, how many would’ve had that reaction? The dialog is often laughable and unnatural. For instance, take the line, “My Moms are both really proud of me. I was raised by two wonderful women. You know, life partners.” WHO TALKS LIKE THIS? Yes, I know, this is from this year’s “Wife of Lot” convention soap opera videos, not the dramas from back in the day, but it exemplifies the problem, which hasn’t changed. To make sure the audience gets the point, it is laid on thick, and then with an extra coating. Of course, at the end of every drama and convention part came the robotic clapping. And the, “Wasn’t that the best drama ever? Such a loving provision from Jehovah!” I don’t think I ever heard anyone give a critique from a writing perspective. Of course, compared to days of boring as wallpaper droning talks, the dramas were often a welcome relief. But on their own, the dramas would’ve never stood by themselves. As an art form, never mind the cult indoctrination they contained, I give all JW dramas I’ve ever seen two thumbs down!
/r/AskReddit - "For those of you that escaped cults... what was your, “I need to get the fuck out” story?"
I am a bot! Please send NotListeningItsABook a private message with any comments or feedback on how I work. EDIT: As of Fri Jun 26 20:53:26 UTC 2020, the post is at [118pts|37c]
I am a Former Jehovahs Witness. It was a a lot of things, but a big one was that I never felt like I could do enough, it was constant, never ending guilt. I used to think there was a problem with me, but I finally realized that no matter how much I did I would still feel like I wasn’t doing enough and that this wasn’t an accident, they wanted you to feel guilty and inadequate. I reached a breaking point and knew I had to get out for my own well being. Now I know more about cults and realize that this is a cornerstone of cult manipulation.
Arabian muslim uncle got a place in the us while he was a navigator, he couldnt go anywhere so he decided to kick back for a few months in an apartment, there wasnt a day that a JW didnt knock on the door, finally he decided to let the bugger in and have a talk, uncle was a scholar like my father, it ended up causing the dude (in his late teens i think) to just stand up and slam the door behind him, never dared stand on his curb again (this was all in the late 90's, so people were more accepting of muslims before 9/11)
Two instances stick out to me, although I was just a child. My family was very involved and we didn’t get out until I was a teenager. My mom is still a member. 1: My first time sitting in a crowded room while the elders or leaders of the group publicly announced someone being “disfellowshipped” or ex-communicated. Meaning they did something wrong and nobody was allowed to speak to them until they were reinstated. I just remember feeling so sick for them. They were publicly shamed and humiliated, and their family was also treated poorly usually. Everyone knew about their perceived wrong doings. Even as a little kid it just seemed so wrong to me. Shouldn’t we have been extra supportive and loving to people when they were struggling with bad choices? Shouldn’t we be encouraging? It felt so gross and cruel. I knew then something was wrong but I was only about 5 years old and if you questioned anything it meant satan was putting lies into your head so I always just kept my mouth shut. If you tried to get out you’d be shunned too and lose everyone you loved. 2: When I was 8 years old, struggling with my parents divorce and my dads subsequent exit from the “congregation”, and an older family member sat me down and told me that if I wanted to have a dad I needed to convince him to start going back to “meetings” and being a good member of the congregation otherwise he would die at Armageddon and I’d never see him again. What a fucked up thing to tell a child. These are just the two biggest instances that come to mind, but I have a whole lifetime of trauma from my years in the cult.
My cousin and I talking on the phone when we were 16 and he had just gotten diagnosed with cancer. We were Jehovah's Witnesses and they don't allow blood transfusions. To live, Trent was going to need blood transfusions. I can still hear him saying "I don't want to piss off Jehovah but I don't want to die. I'm just a kid!" And all at once I went from being a good little JW kid to only doing what I absolutely had to because I still lived with my parents.
Not ex-comunicated. They call it disfellowshipped. You really want to mess with them tell them you're an apostate (someone who was once a JW but left). That's like 10x worse.
I've borrowed the "shelf" analogy from you exmos to describe waking up from the Jehovah's Witness organization. It's so true, it's usually a compilation of many things that eventually cause everything to break. If one were to read my post history they could get an idea of what that means. The experience of waking up from indoctrination is very similar for exmos and exjws. It can take years to fully wake up and depending on circumstance, even longer to actually be able to leave.
I'm wondering if you can do anything for them. Maybe once take some time out of your run and actually talk to them about how they feel about the whole suffering thing? Teenagers are prone to influencing, maybe there is a way to show them how they can make their own life better (probably by leaving the JWs, but also) by taking responsibility for themselves and actively making their environment a better place. I know it's not my duty to tell you what to do during your runs, but I'd like to think that there is hope for these kids.
Yeah,I am very much an apostate. According to JWs I am way worse than Hitler and I'm not stretching anything when I say that. I am just barely one step above Judas. I'm a boring 41 year old white guy who is happily married and has been for years with two kids and a dog. I work as a Registered Nurse for a living. Sometimes I use bad words and drink a bit much but that's about it as far as my evilness goes to normal people. My friends and family members I grew up with, however, are literally terrified to talk to me in public if they run into me at Target. This is my life.
When I found out that all Jehovah's Witnesses elders are basically liars. Combine that with that JWs insist that sexual crime victims must have 2 witnesses to the sex crime before the elders will listen to them. This also includes child rape victims. Combine that with the victim is shunned by family and life long friends if they speak out.
So true. I feel like I hadn’t even totally woken up when I left the JW’s...I was just so miserable I had to get out. Then I started really doing my research (aka reading “apostate” material) and realized how fucked it really is
Not me, but my aunt is a Jehovah Witness. I was 12 years old and was interested in gothic/emo culture. After watching “The Nightmare Before Christmas,” she pulled me aside and told me if I didn’t stop messing with the occult, I’d be raped and attacked by demons. Yeah. I’m an atheist now.
Cult may be a dramatic word for me, but I was part of an aggressive church/youth group, meaning they wanted to be the biggest and best in the area. My city had a ton of churches but my ex church could only hear its own voice, so then would plant a church in an area with a lot of other churches and run the smaller churches out of money. Even made a smaller church change it’s name because it was too similar. I made excuses for years for my church and the way people acted so shallow and abuse of funds- I was 17 and wasn’t willing to believe that maybe these aren’t the good people I think they are. Anyway, I didn’t need the “I need to get out moment”. I volunteered with them for a year and helped run camps and then not one leader tried to keep in touch with me, and I even shortly later got a divorce at 20. I had so many leaders and people I looked up to, and no one ever reached out. Instead a few kicked me out of their bible study and removed me on social media because of some of my marital issues. I realized what it felt like to be on the other side of the white door. It broke my heart. That marriage broke my spirit. I’ve been putting myself back together and like myself a lot more now.
All these are good, but the biggest one is "The Truth". They use this term ad nauseam to describe their organization and belief system. It obviously gets ingrained in adherents' heads so that they just automatically assume everything they're taught and believe is irrefutable. It's insidious the way they're brainwashed. Ex-JW here. I unfortunately know from experience
Ahh ... ... the memories of being a child in a JW house (mother only). Thank god (pun intended) that I got to choose which parent (Dad :) ) to to live with when they divorced :)
It's been years since I was in.but I remember a couple. Bethel - Some kind of central JW org. Pioneer - Someone who dedicated 70+ hours a month to "field service." There's other names for other amounts of time. Field service - knocking on doors, leaving flyers at businesses, visiting or studying with potential members. Annointed One or the annointed- One of the 144,000 people going to heaven. The only straight answer I got for this was "they just know they're annointed." These people can take the bread and wine during Passover. The World, worldly ways, worldly pursuits or people - Just what it sounds like. College is worldly. Your friend down the block who isn't a JW is worldly. Work friends are worldly. Working for a work promotion is worldly. Doing more worldly things makes you more worldly as a person. You're less desirable to spend time with. If you're trying to be a good jw and put in your field service time, have a few bible studies, and be looked up to, you won't do worldly stuff. They have "no blood cards" that they carry around in case there is an accident. My grandma, who was the main person in the cult, proudly carried hers around everywhere. I would have died without a massive blood transfusion in 2018 due to a motorcycle accident. If I was still a believer they would rather I leave my wife and kids then take blood and keep living. I haven't even been to a meeting in probably 10 years. My grandma gave them everything. All her time and money. They abandoned her when she got too sick. You would think she would be on some sort of list with the church supporting her til she died, but nope, a few months after she stopped going, they just stopped talking to her or caring about her. All those years she put in and all the work for nothing, not even a memory. All of her friends were old like her and all of the ones who knew me are all gone or dead. My grandma and our family used to be such a central part of the "church" and now it's like she never existed, and it's been maybe 5 years since she stopped going. I started going when she brought me in a car seat baby carrier and stopped around 16 years old. They all thought I was being a rebellious teen. They didn't know.i just saw through their bullshit.
There is a scripture that states that the blood of an animal is not to be eaten. JWs interpret this as stating that any blood based products are forbidden, including blood transfusions. It's not very solid reasoning, and it has resulted in numerous deaths. JWs have many practices like this that are there for the sole purpose of seperating them from society, such as not celebrating anything, not participating in politics or enrolling in higher education. These practices enforce their belief that they're "no part of this world". This is a hallmark of many cults, as these small differences in behaviour from normal people constantly remind those in the cult that they are different or better than the rest of the world.
Not just someone who left, but someone who left and then spoke out in a negative way about the organization. It’s basically the most unforgivable thing you can do. Apostates were described like the most evil villains on the planet and we were taught even as little kids to be very afraid of them. Almost like they were poisonous.
When I divorced my abusive ex and realized that I wasn't free to have ANY more relationships after that if I waned maintain my relationships my family and entire social system - friends, acquaintances, everyone I knew. All because that cult masquerading as a religion controlled practically every part of my life. You're not allowed to remarry, date or even flirt. Completely humiliating. It's the Jehovah's Witnesses, in case you can't tell. The second wake-up came shorty thereafter when Australia revealed that they had a massive pedophile problem that they refuse to address. To this day, they are the only religion in Australia who refuses to apologize, reform or work with the authorities on how they can change anything, when they clearly are the worst of the bunch when it comes to systemic child abuse. It is a horrible, repressive and even deadly cult. Never join them or even study with them unless you do your google homework first.
Interesting, thanks for the info. I mean, to each their own but imo, the more I learn about JWs, the crazier it seems to me. Although I'm not exactly a religious person so what do I know.
Same. Although I was never baptized, so never officially disfellowshipped. But if any of my current JW family members knew I posted anything about the organization here, I would be a pariah. It’s one thing to not be a member, but an entirely different beast to post negative things. I honestly sometimes still get scared about speaking up about some of the horrible things that went on when I was a kid.
It's more like "Oh no my Christian club is kidnapping homosexuals and beating and torturing them to try and purge them of sin" or "Oh no my once quiet bible study is now actively spreading hate out on the streets"
Also grew up a JW and was in for 25 years. Once a year JWs have a 3 day convention. Basically you have to sit through various bible lectures for 8 hours a day. JWs believe themselves you be the only true religion and everything else is “false religion”. So you grow up very critical of other forms of worship. For me personally I was critical of mega churches as they seemed more like a concert and hangout than actually learning anything from the Bible. While the once a year conventions consisted of thousands of JWs in place for the weekend it was almost business like. Everyone sat in their seats quietly during the lectures. We had a one hour break for lunch and everyone would walk around and talk and that was it. Well in 2019 the JWs has an international convention where they had 40,000 in attendance. People who visited from other parts of the world were told were their “traditional garb”. JWs came in with poster signs. They started singing and dancing during the program and cheering during any video clips played. I found myself in a 3 day megachurch. The very thing I grew up criticizing.
I used to get in arguments with my young womens teachers all the time. Why cant I hold the priesthood? Why do the boys get to pass sacrament and why can my only contribution be to make the bread? I never got any good answers and eventually stopped going. It was just a year or so ago I contacted a lawyer to get my records removed from the church. They wouldn't leave me alone it was insane. I would call the bishop and he would say they would leave me alone. But it was single ward so the bishop and relief society president changed every few months and it would start again. My parents and siblings still practice, but fuck that noise. I'm doing much better on my own. And as someone raised in the church I would say if it's not a cult, its damn near cult like. All money earned is tithed at 10% from the moment you start getting money. Like birthday money when I was in the single digits was all tithed. Men were the holders of power and women were expected to be good little housewives. Clothing had to be modest: dresses and shorts had to go to your knees, tummies couldnt show, and your shoulders had to be covered. The church was your life. So many hours on Sunday you had church, then Monday nights was bible study, then Wednesday was youth activities with the church. Once you got to high school every morning before school was seminary. Your life was the church not just Sundays but everyday. All my friends and family were mormon and I didnt make friends outside of the church until high school because it was such a right knit group. It's just bizarre the things I grew up thinking were totally normal.
Former JW myself, though even as a child I was never really sold on it, always felt wrong. My mother is still hardcore into it and a few family members on her side. They are actually a bit more liberal than most as my sister is gay and they are still very warm and welcoming to her. The passing of my father, who was not a JW, softened up my mother a bit. I didn’t have the same experience and felt like I was being forcibly brainwashed and I remember a few encounters with ‘elders’ over my attitude and behaviour. Fuck those guys. I broke away because I wanted to be a musician and I rather die in their Armageddon than give up my creative outlet. That went over really well as you can imagine. I’m in my 40’s now and have had a moderately successful music career to date, I never looked back. I feel bad for my mom, a few years ago I caved and went to meeting with her to humour her. This is after maybe 20 years after giving the brothers the finger and I hadn’t seen my mother in years. It was 2 hours of hateful, ignorant bullshit. Fuck those guys. It’s been a while since they knocked on my door, I must be on a no knock list from the last time they were in the neighborhood. I’m quite sure I made an impression. As far as a single instance that happened that made me feel I needed to get the fuck out? It was when I was blindsided with a meeting with the ‘elders’ that my mother set up and she just sat there for over an hour watching these grown men verbally abuse me and try to tear me apart mentally because I didn’t get it. I checked out right then and there and bided my time. I ended up leaving the country at age 20. Fuck those guys.
I got lucky. My dad left and I went to live with him as a teen. And I was never baptized so was never able to be disfellowshipped and my mom/other extended family are still allowed to talk to me even though I don’t have super close relationships with them. I’m glad you got out too, and I hope you’ve been able to heal from it all.
This is actually something I was just thinking about the other day. I was raised a Jehovah’s Witness, and I think it was less one big “aha!” moment and more a bunch of little “what the fuck”s. For those unfamiliar with the group, witnesses believe that Armageddon is coming any day now, and the only way to survive is be a baptized JW. They also refuse to accept blood transfusions, celebrate holidays, toast, date without supervision, and practice yoga, just to name a few things. A big one for me was watching a leader from the very top of the group describe unbelievers as “vessels fit for destruction” (wtf?) and pull out a malformed piece of glassware to illustrate, he then smashed it on the floor to illustrate what will happen to us. Another prominent leader of the group was recorded warning that tight pants are designed by perverted homosexuals. On a more personal level, the last year I was a witness I left a large religious gathering and was met with protestors. I realized something questionable is likely happening if people are taking time to protest. The picket signs weren’t even aggressive, they said things like “there is support! You can leave!” The reason this even needs to be said is because witnesses shun people who leave the religion. I hadn’t seen either of my 2 older siblings in about 10 years. I hung out with school friends outside of school for the first time when I was in grade 12 and my mom cried because she was afraid she was a bad parent. I got out at 17 and haven’t looked back. Sorry if this was a small novel!
My morning runs take me through a local park, and at one of the entrances to the park, teenage Jehovas witnesses often sit with a big sign handing out brochures. The sign, literally, says “Will this suffering ever end?” Seeing the two miserable kids sitting next to it, I gotta hope so.
I am an excommunicated JW. That means I was never baptized so they were allowed to talk / preach to me still and my parents would send them to my door constantly. I told my husband at the time that if they came to the door to tell them we were disfellowshipped and they would go away. So the next time they stopped by I sent him to the door. But in his confusion and misunderstanding he told them we were dismembered and can’t talk right now. I had hoped by the look on their faces that that would keep them away but they are persistent buggers. Its a funny memory tho.
OR nurse here. To be clear I dont want to justify JWs or anything just a cool fact: We do hip replacements on JWs too, in situations like that a thing we call 'Cell Saver" comes to action that catches your blood, cleans it and is able to be reused on yourself (to explain it the easiest way) , thing SWs are apparently ok with. Came in handy a few times. But in my country we have healthcare for all and this might be too expensive of a procedure for every country that has not, sadly.
Do all JWs not vote then? I knew about not celebrating as well as the blood transfusion thing but not about the politics thing. Do JWs also refrain from even discussing politics, too?
"Jehovah's organization doesn't suffer from the the plague of pedophilia like the churches of Christendom... IT SIMPLY DOES NOT HAPPEN!"
These were the words that woke me up, and this is my story. I was recently encouraged by a few people here to share my experience because they felt it could be encouraging. I guess I've benefited from so many stories while I started working my way through this, that it would only be fair to try to return the gifts that were given to me when I needed it most. So, this is the story of what woke me up, and what I've been through as a result of leaving the Jehovah's Witness organization, and taking a stand. I'll try to keep it short (it won't be), but I'll put a TL;DR at the bottom for those of you that don't have the time. I am a born in and raised JW, and have been a member for over 40 years. I grew up with a mom and step dad that could never decide how strict a JW they wanted to be. They were both very abusive to my sister and I. Especially the step dad, he was a monster. I am now thankful that they raised me though, cause I may never have left the "TRUTH" if I had gone to live with my forever Elder father like my sister did not long after being molested by our step dad... she is now drowning in the kool-aid with no hope for an awakening. I say I'm glad they raised me cause I often heard them talk about things they did not agree with in the organization. Just hearing that as a child made it possible for me to think that it was ok to disagree with what was being taught. So, I'm a hip cool free thinking 5 year old being taught about Noah's arc and the tower of Babel and the 10 commandments and all the fun stories, and back then I knew some of those didn't make sense. I couldn't put it into words or formulate why, but my mind was trying to tell me that it wasn't right. I know I asked about it but I cannot remember the responses. I know that I eventually accepted that they were true, and that we could not understand everything and to not think about it too much. Basically do what all the JW's do. I never liked this, and it's always bothered me. I only mention this part of my childhood for two reasons. One, cause it plays later in my story, and two, because I think I've always been an apostate! ;-) So we jump forward about 33 years and I'm with my family (wife and two kids - mid and late teens), at the district convention about three to four years ago. This is when the brother from Bethel, made the statement: "Jehovah's organization doesn't suffer from the the plague of pedophilia like the churches of Christendom... IT SIMPLY DOES NOT HAPPEN!" Immediately, my face did one of these :-/ because it was maybe two days earlier I happened to read an article about a Jehovah Witness girl (Candace Conti), that was suing for a record amount due to being molested. I then immediately thought of my sister and how she was molested by our step dad. I always just chalked that up to being an issue only we dealt with and him being an asshole, but all of a sudden I had two instances that I was aware of and I felt very uneasy. I then also recalled a girl I grew up with that had told me once that she had been sexually abused by multiple elders growing up. I now had three separate instances of pedophilia that I knew of, two of them I knew intimate details about and knew them to be true. I didn't know it at the time but both my kids took note of the statement made in the talk as well and it bothered them too. So, what did I do with this "uneasy" feeling? Nothing, I did what every good JW does and pushed it down deep with my other doubts and issues about the org. Another year passes and I continue on at meetings, in service, and the school like a good boy. I'm often times approached about progressing on to become a ministerial servant, and told what a great Elder I would be because of my harsh past and empathetic nature. But I could never do it because of the overwhelming feelings of guilt about my doubts. I prayed and prayed, sobbing on the floor begging for forgiveness and the ability to not feel the way I did, but it never went away, so I never progressed. I guess I felt that if I couldn't wholeheartedly accept it like we are taught, than I shouldn't be in a position to instruct others to do it themselves. By the end of that year I run across an article about the Candace Conti case again in the news. She is being awarded an historic sum, and with it that Bethel brothers words come rushing back to my mind along with that same uneasy feeling... fuck, this sucks. A few days pass, and I stumble across an article about Noah. An archeologist found a parchment that tells almost the exact same story as the biblical Noah, but it predates it by about 4000 years. It even predates the story of Utanapishtim in the story of Gilgamesh which was also a couple thousand years earlier than the Noah story... wait, what? Who the fuck is UTANAPISHTIM & GILGAMESH? All of a sudden I have all sorts of bells going off and I'm actually feeling really nervous. To this point I haven't been on any apostate web sites, this was all just stumbled on through news on Yahoo and MSN. Now, I'm suddenly feeling like the whole JW thing is a fake. If one story about Noah is taught as FACT but clearly isn't a factual account, than what else could there be that is taught as FACT but really isn't. I'm becoming confused, and I have one question going through my mind... How can I be right and so many people be wrong? If I'm right, and the whole JW thing is fake, then that means all the people I know and love are wrong. I'm nobody! I'm a smart guy I guess, but more street smart and quick thinking than book smart and well read with a great education. Just how in the hell could I be right about this. I decided to search the word Jehovah on Reddit and see what might come up. I was ridiculously nervous and felt sick to my stomach. I remember staying home from meeting that night as I found this sub and asked the question "How can I be right and so many be wrong?" I laid in bed feeling cold and shivering as my brain sent intense emotion through my body while I waited for someone to answer. I prayed that I would find someone that could give me an answer that would convince me that what I was thinking was way off base, and that I would quickly be out of this sub and back to knowing I was a Jehovah's Witness. Not the brightest move I guess, but for some reason I didn't feel comfortable asking any brother or elder this question. I needed an answer from someone who may have felt like I did, and needed to know why they left. It wasn't long before I got responses from quite a few of you. They were surprisingly well reasoned, respectful of my fragile and failing belief system, and incredibly loving. I cried. Then I sobbed. I finally had some relief from these feelings of guilt I'd lived with my entire life. Nothing made sense and I was more confused now then ever before, but I had no guilt. This, I thought, is how I should have felt after I got baptized! I take a few days to process what I'm feeling and it's really a mixed bag of fucked up emotion. What the hell do I do now?? I started researching everything about the organization. I looked at every site, read about all the false predictions, Beth Sarim and Beth Shan, flip flopping of their understandings of prophecy, quote mining, why there is evidence of different languages prior to the the whole tower of Babel story, why the Israelites story didn't match up, all of it and more! Anything and everything I could think of, I looked for and began to find answers. It was amazing, I read and read, and read for days. I hardly spoke to my family while I was voraciously consuming information. In the end, I became very depressed. I was alone. Alone in my knowledge, alone in the congregation, even alone in my own family, alone at home. I didn't know what to do or how to approach them. Would my kids think I'm crazy and eventually shun me for my thinking? Was my wife going to leave me? Would she convince the kids to leave me? I was terrified, and seriously considered suicide. Maybe that would be easier for everyone if I left them alone to be who they were, happy being without me being there to fuck it all up... I decided to sleep on it. The next day I run across a meme on Reddit that says: "Morality is doing what's right regardless of what you're told. Obedience is doing what you're told regardless of if it's right." I then realized that the organization didn't want right hearted "MORAL" people, they want obedient ones. I realized there is a clear difference and if being a good JW taught me anything, you have to make a choice. I decided that suicide really wasn't one of the choices and I cried some more for a while that day. After I got the emotional sickness out of my system, I decided that I wasn't going to fade in the typical sense. I was just going to stop going, and I did... cold turkey. My wife and kids went here and there, but without me their meeting attendance lagged and we found ourselves calling in (wife's decision) more and more, and we usually talked through it and found it fun to make fun of the crazier ones that always bugged us. Quitting like that was a more difficult thing to do though because I worked for a JW owned company, and a prominent elder in my congregating was my boss. But like I said, I HAD to make a decision, had to take a stand. Every meeting night was very awkward at the end of the day when he'd say "See you at the meeting!", and I'd respond with a "YEP, see ya there!". We both knew I wasn't going to go. I did this for about six months, and then one day I'm told I'm being laid off due to a lack of available work for me. I was in the middle of two very large projects that they specifically hired me to do, but I knew this day was coming and didn't fight them on it. Honestly, it was torture listening to them all talk about this meeting or that, inspiring articles, or their uplifting day out in service. I would feign interest, and it sucked. I wanted to scream at them and shake them all awake, but I know it wouldn't have worked. I left, feeling angry and bitter over their lack of love for someone they're supposed to be caring for, but was also pretty relieved. By now, no one in my family is going to meetings. I want to talk to my kids so badly but am still afraid of what they might think of me. My son had been showing signs of "WORLDLY-NESS", listening to rap music he hadn't before and playing video games and Magic the Gathering card games with friends... Basically doing things that we would have considered very questionable or wrong before. I decide to probe him with a few questions and ask what he thought of those things and how it related to being a witness. I told him that if the elders knew he was doing those things he would be talked to, and I asked him what he would do. He said he guessed he'd stop playing. I asked him why he was doing it if he knew they thought it was wrong and would tell him not to play and listen to those things. He didn't know. But he then opened up to telling me that he didn't find fulfillment in being a JW and didn't care to be one, and only got baptized because all his friends were doing it and thought he should too. He said he didn't really believe the creation story and kind of believed in Natural Selection more than anything else. I wanted to cry. This part is hard to believe but I promise it happened this way. The very next day, without having discussed anything with her brother, my daughter asked to speak to my wife and I. She tells us she didn't want to be a JW anymore. She was disgusted by the hypocrisy of it all, and the fakers and lying kids she knew in the hall. This time, I did cry... I guess I'm an emotional guy. God, I'm a baby sometimes, but I love my kids and I couldn't live without them. I later found out from both the kids that they heard the same statement made at the convention about pedophilia and knew it was a lie and it bothered them too. My wife has been a different story, she doesn't go to meetings, but still believes. She isn't willing to read what the rest of us have, but she's fine with the fact that we aren't going anymore. She told me that many people have happy marriages even though they have different religious views. She is slowly letting go of certain ideals here and there, but it's a slow process. I love her though and we are going to be ok, and I believe one day completely free of this cult. Continued in comments... TL;DR: I heard a statement in a talk from a Bethel brother that I knew was a lie and took the necessary steps in my life to remove myself from the witnesses. I was lucky enough to remove my grown children as well, and my wife is coming along slowly. We've lost everyone else in our lives and are moving to San Francisco next week to start a new adventure together... Hopefully leaving the WTBTS behind for good. I owe this site for saving my sanity and giving me the courage to take a stand. Thank you!
Sexual Immorality In The Spiritual Paradise Part I
Remember all of this the next time a Jehovah's Witness tells you about how corrupt and immoral the Church is. I'm not going to copy and paste usernames, just now they are not my experiences. ---------------------- I remember in one hall in our district, there was this one brother who came back from Bethel. He was the poster child. A super duper uber jw. He got married, then got DFed, and divorced within a couple of months. Everyone was like wtf happened? What did he do? He was so good! How could this happen? Turns out his wife found his porn magazine stash and turned him into the elders. Back then, porn was a big no no and resulted in a DF on the spot if I remember correctly. But I think nowadays, it's a pretty mild offense in the sense that you get a silent slap on the wrist and told not to watch it anymore or maybe a public reproof or if you're watching the real nasty stuff, a DF. ------------------------ We have a LONG-time pioneer woman in her 50s with a TOTAL dork of a husband who was an elder. THey'd been married for decades. They also have a daughter who is ALSO a pioneer and who ended up learning spanish and married a mexican ministerial servant. Well, i think the mom got tired of her dorky husband and ended up shacking up with HER DAUGHTERS HUSBAND. She cheated on her husband with the son-in-law! It rocked our congregation pretty hardcore as they were people that were pillars in the congregation and had a LOT of family that attended. Needless to say she ruined her relationship with her daughter. Her husband took her back though. The daughter divorced her husband. ---------------------------- 36 years in, I saw or heard a bunch of these. The one that actually impacted me was the fact that one of the elders on my JC had been kicked out of bethel and reproved for cheating on his RP wife while they were in NY doing temp work. Five years later he's an elder again and telling me I "wasn't repentant enough." Let's just say, that I spoke my peace before standing up and revoking my request for reinstatement. Oh, and I doubt he will ever suggest repentance is on a sliding scale OR that he can judge it again. Another one that I was impacted by was the RP that was 20 that was assigned to study with me when I was 12. She moved to our KH to help along with a couple that had just returned from a missionary assignment in Belize. They had been married like 15 years but were only in their late 30's. Anyway, because it was a drive, the 3 of them carpooled to and from meetings and service pretty much every day. After about two years, the elder and the RP that had studied with me, mentored me in service and insisted I AP during school breaks, ran off together. Turns out they had been screwing since the first car ride that the wife had missed due to sickness and every single chance since. It was notorious. I think the couple might have even been in an issue of the awake due to the missionary work and the fact they were interracial. Anyway, the two got df'd, disappeared, got married and came back after five-six years. Last I heard, he's an elder again. ------------------------------------------- Heard of one where a circuit overseer ran away with a local elder. ------------------------------------------- Asshole pompous elder that told me to be a better wife. Told a teen in the congregation that if she didn't shut up about a nearby elder that had molested her he'd make sure her entire family would be df'd. Hounded anyone that didn't follow his "encouragement" Just an over all asshole jerk watchtower company man. Sneered in talks about jws who struggled financially because obviously they didn't do enough to have jehovahs blessing. Lived off thousands he borrowed from banks and credit cards. 2000s got here and the end he was counting on to erase his massive debt didn't come so he went on a drunken binge, ripped his house apart with an axe and other tools. Beat the hell out of his wife. Killed himself and left all the debt for his family to worry about. Papers just said suicide. All the dirty stuff was hushed up but a police person I knew from work filled me in on the details. There were countless elders and pioneers of over the years where the man would screw a young sister, confess, dump old wife and family, get reinstated in 6 months or so and continue being a good jw. The old wife dump scheme got so prevalent that they increased the time they had to stay df'd but it didn't slow it down much in our area. The wife swapping scandal and key parties I know of were in the Pennsylvania and Ohio areas. A couple of relatives were df'd for that one. This went on for years. It was a bunch of well to do couples from several circuits would drive to a city none were from. Stay in hotels and drink and party. About 4 of 20 couples got caught. Guilty conscience confession is what busted the 4 or so couples.. the rest slid by without being caught. ------------------------------------------------- Star of the District, special pioneer, anointed, married, elder, commits adultery with RP in same congo. ---------------------------------------- Oh yeah, and one of the Elders who was on my judicial committee that decided to disfellowship me ended up running away with another Brother's wife a few years later, turns out they were having an affair for quite some time. ----------------------- Special pioneer couple in my hall. Very nice guy, the wife was always a little quiet. They had a 16-year-old kid who would follow them around. Turns out the SPECIAL PIONEER wife was screwing the 16-year boy. She got df'd, reinstated, then remarried a new guy who looked just like the 16-year-old. The elders told the family not to report it to the police so that it didn't bring shame on Jehovah's name. --------------------------- A ministerial servant in our hall was accused by a young girl of molesting her. Nobody believed her, then another girl spoke up. But, you know, the "Two Witness Rule", so nothing happened to him and we were told to keep quiet. We spread it around anyway, and soon half the congregation believed the girls and half didn't, but it got too divisive and the Elders kicked him out (after 3 months). Then two or three more girls ended up saying he did it to them too, and a few years ago, a guy I grew up with (he was like a little brother to me) said he molested him, too. ---------------------- SF Bay Area. Elder appointed in his early twenties (late 1970's) Very early on appointed as Presiding Overseer in any congregation he was assigned to. Often called by fellow elders "Superboy" Very well spoken. Worked for HP as a upper level manager all despite never going to college. Assembly overseer for both district and circuit assemblies. Always has numerous parts on district and circuit assemblies. Served on countless special judicial committees.(some may not know those existed) Becomes fulltime pioneer along with his wife. Eventually leaves HP and becomes a circuit overseer in mid-west. Leaves circuit overseer position and returns to Bay Area (exact reasons unknown to me) So good as an HP manager that they give him his job back. Becomes PO of congregation soon after return. Wife continues to pioneer. Wife gets cancer and dies. Then the wheels fall off. He ends up fucking a married Pioneer sister. Gets disfellowshipped. Gets re-instated and ends up marrying the Adulterous Pioneer sister's daughter,also a pioneer. (the daughter is at least 30 yrs his junior) This was/is a super pious elder who once chewed out a fellow pioneer in the car group for using the word "pissed" in an anecdotal story. He also never confessed to his first daughter that she was conceived out of wedlock when the parents were teenagers before learning the "truth" in order to protect their reputation as clean. This guy was "squeaky clean" for decades! I imagine that having the husband of the adulterous pioneer and father of his new pioneer wife come in to the hall during a talk, walk up to him and his new wife and yell, "FIRST YOU FUCK MY WIFE AND NOW YOU'RE FUCKING MY DAUGHTER!" put him in a in a different spotlight than what he was used to. If he wasn't there already. The father of the new bride proceeded to try and beat the shit out of him. Ha ha! -------------- I know of two. The first one involved a MS who was 26 at the time, I was 14. He was always hitting on me, and at first, being a shy teenager, I was flattered, but eventually, he kept trying to get me alone and I started feeling weird about that since he was so much older. Guess I should have said something at the time but I failed in that aspect. Anyways, flash forward 5 years. That same MS, who was 31 now, started petioning another girl who was 15 at the time. He got busted sneaking in through her bedroom window one night by her single mother. The girl was DF'd whereas he was reproved privately thanks to having an elder daddy. The other scandal I know of involved an elders wife who got in touch with her high school sweetheart after only 2 months of marriage to her elder husband. She ran off to Pennsylvania for about a month, came back, apologized to her husband, and only spent 6 months DF'd. The whole debaucle shocked the congregation because she was such a great pioneer and her new husband was loaded. No one thought she had a reason to leave. ------------------- An elder falls for this one "spiritually weak" sister, totally dressed like a skank lol (gee, I wonder why the poor virgin elder set his eyes on her...). You could totally tell his family was against that relationship - also the fact that she wasn't officially divorced either was part of that. One of his sisters totally wasn't hiding her feelings about it. So one Sunday, we were out in the parking lot as we were all getting into our cars to leave. I see the elder talking to his GF, she's inside her car, he's talking outside of the car. His sister passes the car on the passenger side and slapped the car with her hand in anger. The GF starts screaming from the inside of the car, gets out, runs to face the sister... Screaming fest right there in the middle of the KH parking lot... until they start slapping and hitting each other. I swear this was like a fight in high school!! Elder had to pull them both apart with he help of his BIL, while the rest of us just stared in shock, like WTF is happening?! -------------------------- Annointed brothers wife went full lesbo for a younger sister in the hall. Then she wouldnt fess up even though we all knew they did it all the time and he was stuck with her. ----------- When I was young, my family moved to N.M. for a couple of years and we met this sister and her little girl that was about 5 years old. This elder was always picking up the little girl and taking her outside during the meeting at night. After we moved and the years passed by I saw this on this news. It was that elder and the little girl http://goo.gl/YAHj4E ---------------------- My dad was an elder and when I was 11, it was discovered he had been cheating on my mom for a year with someone from work. He was df'd, my mom stayed with him and to this day(15 years later) they're still together and my dad is an elder again. Sometimes I wish they would've divorced to save our family the public humiliation and hellish home life that came after. ----------------- Mom of 3 with wealthy and successful unbelieving husband cheats on unbelieving husband with elder. Both couples divorce, both sinners are df'd. Unbelieving hubby is so astonished that he drinks the kool aid and becomes a dub too! He is fast tracked to elder, then marries a hot young rp only 2 years older than his oldest kid, who by this time is in high school and knocked up (not yet baptized at this point so no jc). Cheating mom gets reinstated, remarried an elder and they're all happy as clams in the same congo, men on the same elder body 20 years later... --------------- My congregation was a typical "family cong". Big families, powerful in the hall, elders and sons multiplied by 10 type congregation. Anyways, a married elder (lets call him Bro. D) in my hall decided to have an affair with another elders wife (Sis. Slut)... for 4 years... Once the elders in the hall decided to call him out (coincidentally a month after Bro. D's father, who happened to be the Cong Overseer, died) he and Sis. Slut got publicly reproofed. Then 4 months later, Bro. D and Sis. Slut got married (in another hall) and the elders said that they couldn't fault them for getting married because it had been done in Jehovah's house. Keep in mind, in the whole process of the public reproof, Sis. Slut had moved in with Bro. D and no one said anything about it. No divorce finalized by either of the spouses and no action by the elders. Fucked up the kids of those two families pretty badly. To the point where one of them appeared in a Hedly-(sucks) music video (oh my gahd nooo apahstate music) ----------------- Had a Pioneer who decided to work at a local strip club. She's hot, but she's also crazy. I'm perfectly fine never running into her again. ----------------------- Biggest scandal in my hall was my dad (the PO) being outed as a kiddie diddler. Pretty much destroyed the elder body, some moved away, some moved halls. Only the shittiest ones, his circle of friends, stayed behind to make my family's lives hell. Second was an elder losing his shit during the Ministry School. Screamed at the audience, kicked his Bible off the stage, stormed out of the hall shouting obscenities. He was always a shifty eyed bastard, I suspected him of being a creep. He used to make the oddest comments about little girls shoes and feet. Crazy Eyes, we used to call him. There were numerous porn scandals, but they were all pretty pedestrian. --------------------------------- In the hall I grew up in, a mother was having sex with her son in law over a period of several years. The husband caught them in bed together. He went to the elders but because his wife and son in law denied it, the two witness rule came into play and the elders wouldn't free him scriptural from divorcing her. Also, everyone in the hall started picking sides and it became so bad, that all the elders in the hall were replaced with elders from bethel and other local brothers. ------------------------ A friend of mine, who was a MS, was getting married and two weeks before his marriage he caught the CO having sex with his fiancé. ------------ Local elder convicted of murdering his wife and another elder was convicted of molesting young JW girls Both were prosecuted by the same Lawyer who has written a book about many of his cases and writes about both of them. http://www.amazon.com/The-Humanity-Justice-Burke-Strunsky-ebook/dp/B00J46TNZO --------------- Elder's golden-boy son, fucked his MIL less than a month after his wife had their baby😐 ------------ Not at my hall, but a few years ago in a neighboring hall, 3 different elders did a wife swap thing resulting in them all getting disfellowshipped - all 6 of them. One elder committed suicide a week after. ------------- Elder tried to kill my father. But my father deserved it, because he was fucking the elder's wife. Whole cong melted down. Those were some insane years. ---------------- Newlywed couple has issues in the first year (no big surprise). An elder gives them marital counseling for a few months all the while focusing on the newlywed hot 18 year old girl that must have had issues of some sort. He abruptly leaves his wife in the middle of the night, as well as his adult children (who ran his entire business); abandons his rather large and prospering business, his home, livelihood, and surprised everyone with moving a few states over with said 18 year old. He wasn't df'd for any of that, in case you are wondering. Must have been true love. /s ---------------- In our last congregation - one of the elders wives ran off, but not with a brother, she went off with another sister and as far as I know both of them are still together as a lesbian couple. The sister must have had a crappy marriage to an overly domineering man IMHO - and as this elders kids are pioneers etc he had to step down. Makes one wonder what goes on behind closed doors in some of these houses. Another one was a CO who I always had my doubts about. I observed him perving at sisters a few times & wondered just what sort of guy he really was. Then I heard that he had been DFd for leaving his wife and taking off with a pioneer sister! ------------------ I knew a JW who is still a JW as far as I know who got his foot shot off in gang activity. Another time, him, my friend, and I were talking about girls. He then goes on about how great sucking on boobs was. He quickly began to backtrack once he realized who he was talking to. ------------- I know of a married elder that was sleeping with another married woman in the congrigation. He served on the JC for that womans husband and DF'd him!!! And then he continued to 'comfort' that woman through her divorce. Eventually she got pissed off at him because he wouldn't leave his wife and she confessed and exposed him. It's funny because I remember someone telling me this and saying "see! Jehovah exposes everyone eventually, he doesn't allow sinners to stay in his congrigation" ------------- My pioneeeldeService Overseer (had a young daughter at the time) was beating his pioneer wife/mother of his child, and boning his wife's best friend, who also was a pioneer. --------------- There was a rumour a while ago about female pioneers in Denmark that were caught making a living on making porn... --------- PO while married while living at Grantville Assembley hall fucking a new single mom in the hall. Whos husband had just died from Brain cancer who then leaves his wife for her when she annouces she has breast cancer. Oh and this cunt was trying to DF me for making jokes Online ----------------- An elder at my old hall acted all superior and holier than thou at the meetings.... He got arrested a year ago for having an affair with a 15 year old girl. Everyone keeps saying "Oh, it might not be true." The mother of the girl is the one that forced her daughter to go to the police. A 30 year old women also came forward. She said they had a similar "relationship" when she was 15... I feel so bad for his wife. For as indoctrinated as she is (she is a pioneer) she was always sweet. ----------------- Elders kids got drunk and smoked weed nearly every weekend and parents dragged them out in field service the next day with hangovers and a few of them puked on doorsteps or sidewalks. -------------- Wife swapping in some congregations in England (Not a rumor). CO told me that he avoids asking how are the sister's spouses during his visit because the sister's husband will be another's. During the 6 months he's gone, the people involved were judicially heard (slapped on the wrist) then came back to the congregation as active and exemplary Jdubs. Ready for another round of wife swapping I supposed. This goes to show that Elders can go around and see a loophole in the Watchtower's rules to protect their friends. ---------------- A pioneeelder in my hall who was married and had three kids. The dude would look to get people in trouble and caused it all the time. Little did we all know that he was banging another pioneer brother's teenage daughter while keeping up his uberdub charades. (He even spoke in the Holy Monotone voice.) ------------- Two married pioneer couples that were good friends. They ended up swapping partners and getting remarried. They stayed friends after and still hung out This guy who dated my sister in law was always a piece of shit. Even by normal people’s standards. Getting drunk all the time at 18 years Old. Going to high school parties and doing drugs. Sex with a former girlfriend. The works. He married my sister in law and they both got disfellowshipped. While they were married he started dealing drugs and abusing her. Any time something happened he would put on the angel act for his parents and they would buy it. They get divorced and 3 months after they found out he was sleeping with another girl he gets reinstated. -------------- A MS Husband in our congregation spent our entire childhood beating his wife. Everyone thought it was funny that she wore sooooo much makeup until we realized that it was to cover the bruises. Sad. ------------------- Had a friend who used to go out and get drunk with. He was bapped, I wasn't at the time. His dad was an elder and this friend had lots of responsibilities at his hall. We would often head out, drink like fish, I would drink drive his car back to his parent's bungalow, let myself in quietly and go to bed. Around 4am he would get a cab back from whichever girl's house he's been fucking, tip toe around the building, tap on his bedroom window and I would help him climb in. We both fall asleep, then it was time to get up at 9am and get ready for the Sunday meeting. It was always funniest when he had to read the Watchtower with a banging hangover. We've lost contact since, but are both df'd -------------- My own brother. I was fading, he was out going to blowjob parties when parents were away. About 20 teenagers would get together, including elders' kids. My dad thought it was strange they were always hanging out, and saw them getting BJs thru a window. Not one of them got reproved publicly or DF'd. ---------------- Guy gets baptized at convention, that night to celebrate goes down to Tijuana and gets himself a prostitute. ------------------ My ex friend/roommate. He was DFd at the time but trying to get back in(for the 2nd or 3rd time) and I was fading. He was a full on alcoholic and would often beat his dog when he was drunk. He smoked, did cocaine and often used that to get girls to "party". He fucked a lot of chicks. He was a salesperson so he lied constantly to get sales. When we finally parted ways he extorted money out of me. Months later he got arrested for getting drunk and assault with a deadly weapon. I find out later he did all this and STILL got reinstated. --------------- I've known of wife swapping and caught a married elders son in a strip club. I found out years after I left, from other souces that left, that there was plenty of sex going on within our congregation including the the solicitation of prostitutes. F- - - - - - g Hippocrates.
Why Christians Don’t Seem to Mind Violating The Regulative Principle During Christ-mass byDr.C.MatthewMcMahon
I know that you would love a quick answer to the question – “Should Christians celebrate Christmas?” But most things worth understanding and knowing about are a little bit more complex than simply giving a yes or no answer. There are many articles and papers written to show that Christmas, and other holidays like Easter, are thoroughly unbiblical, and are intended to sway the Christian community away from practicing such “man-made holy-days.” No doubt the authors of such papers have the best interest of the Christian Church in mind, and are not simply jumping upon the bandwagon of “reformed thought” in order to add another notch to their theological belt. However, when these articles begin to substantiate the claim that Christians should have nothing to do with the holiday of Christmas, the weightiest arguments they bring forth are two fold: They, 1) appeal to the pagan roots of idolatry, and 2) the history and witness of the Christian Church. This is a mistake. First, writers appeal to the pagan roots of the holiday as a means to deter Christians from practicing such abominable vestiges even though the a 21st century Christmas is not blatantly practicing the same rites as the Babylonians or druids of old once did. For instance, the Christmas tree is set up in some corner of the living room, decorated and lighted, and gifts abound and grow under the tree as December 25th draws near. The appeal is then made to Jeremiah 10:3-4Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) where idolatry is condemned. It says, “For the customs of the peoples are futile; For one cuts a tree from the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the ax. They decorate it with silver and gold; they fasten it with nails and hammers so that it will not topple.” Here we see idolatry based in the practice of cutting down, setting up, and decorating a tree. Or they quote Jeremiah 2:20Open in Logos Bible Software (if available), “For of old I have broken your yoke and burst your bonds; And you said, “I will not transgress,’ When on every high hill and under every green tree You lay down, playing the harlot.” Here the evergreen tree was used to promote false religion and idolatry. God was angered at the Israelites for their religious syncretism and their participation in these practices. Idolatry is certainly condemned by God and no Christian should ever be disobeying and transgressing the first table of the Law of God (commandments 1-4) by profaning the worship of God with idols. The second appeal is made to the history of the church and its practices. Surely this is an important note to make, and that petition to such testimony is warranted. We could cite the reformers such as Luther and Calvin, the pastors of Geneva city-state, the Waldensen Confession, the Puritan Divines such as Edmund Calamy, Samuel Rutherford, James Durham, Increase Mather, Thomas Vincent, John Owen, Andrew Clarkson, Ebenezer Erskine, William Wilson, Alexander Moncrieff, James Fisher, John Willison, John Brown, Robert Shaw (and many more), The Westminster Confession, the Directory of Publick worship, The General Assembly of the Church of Scotland and their confession, and various other creeds and confessions. These diligent writers will make it known that the church did not practice this holiday until sometime after the 4th century, and show varied proofs that most opposed the practice altogether, condemning it out rightly being a violation of the worship of God and God’s expressed commands to worship Him in a specific manner. So, here we see that the siege to discourage the practice and participation of the “holiday” Christmas is usually based on these 2 points. Before I give my own view, I would like to address the two avenues above which are the usual lines of reasoning in dissuading Christians from partaking in the Christmas holiday. The first argument is certainly important. Christians are certainly never to participate in idolatrous worship. However, the case against Christmas on this point is not that Christians are out rightly bowing down to a tree and worshipping it, or profaning Christ by setting the Yule log on the fire, or desecrating the glory of God by exchanging gifts with one another. I have never met a Christian who blatantly setup a green tree in their home to practice idolatry. The argument presented in the first point above is not directed by those writers against people who setup idols in their home and bow down to them after supper for family devotions. Rather, the argument stems from the pagan practices which lie behind what Christians do with those Christmas trees, Yule logs, wreaths, etc. in days of old. Scripture everywhere condemns idolatry, but the argument that because something has pagan roots is no argument against Christmas. Why is this? Some may believe I am going to appeal to Romans 14 and the Christian’s liberty with holy days as the argument against this. But that passage does not address the situation rightly, and, as a matter of fact condemns such days. Rather, I appeal to 1 Corinthians 8:1-13. It asserts the following:
Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. 2 And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, this one is known by Him. 4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live. 7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse. 9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
Did Paul have any problem eating meat sacrificed to idols? Not at all. His conscience was clear knowing that food “does not commend us to God”; whether we eat it or not. Trees do not commend us to God, nor do Yule logs, wreaths, or turkey and ham made for the Christmas occasion. These things do not make us better or worse towards God in and of themselves. Paul ate meat that was sacrificed to idols. He abstained from the eating of meat if it would cause those who would bock at the practice to stumble in their faith. Either way, eating or not eating, Paul did not defile his conscience by it. Shall we ask the question, “What went on in ceremonial rites which allowed these meat markets to offer meat sacrificed in this way?” We could go into the abominations of the pagans, their sacrifices, their temple prostitution, their wicked practices with other man-made gods, in reality worshipping the devil, and the like. We could simply use our imaginations about this and in some cases our imaginations would not be graphic enough to consider what heathen idolatries occurred against the Living God. But Paul ate the meat. Even though the meat had pagan origins, he still ate it. Even though the cow or bull was offered as a sacrifice for devils, slain and drained of its blood, cut up and used in the ceremony, Paul still had no problem eating it. Paul’s determent to eat meat sacrificed to idols was the consideration of a weaker brother. If there was a weaker brother who could not handle, in his own conscience, the thought of eating or practicing such a thing, because Paul was the stronger and more mature Christian, free in Christ to eat what God had made, he still, nevertheless, would have abandoned the practice. He would not have abandoned eating meat sacrificed to idols because of the meat’s pagan origins, but because of his love to the brother in question. Christmass (yes I spelled it correctly) cannot be condemned because it has pagan origins. Christmas, as pagan as it might be, and as many pagan ideologies it may possess, cannot be condemned because 1000 years ago or 500 years ago or 5 days ago someone bowed down to the tree and committed idolatry with it. (People hang picture frames through their home to display photos, made from wood – should that deter them since they knew it was once a tree, and someone 500 years ago worshipped trees?) The Christian is not bound by such instances if they are not bowing down to it, and their consciences are cleared before Christ because they have studied and thought through the implications and biblical/historical information on the subject, if that was all there was to it. Secondly, the appeal to men may be helpful, but the opinions of men, no matter how renown they may be, should never be the basis of setting the Christian’s conscience. The Christian conscience should be captive by the Word of God alone. However, Christians should always weigh and consider the prominent and distinct men of the church (the gifts of Christ to His chosen people) in difficult areas of theology and doctrine. It is certainly helpful and edifying to the soul to see what the councils, creeds, puritans and magisterial reformers thought. In the case at hand, most of church history is opposed to the involvement of the Christian in the celebration of Christmas. Even the city-state of Geneva in 1546 stated they would reprimand anyone who observed the day, believing it was a retreat to Romanism – the heretical monster they were breaking away from. (“Those who observe the Romish festivals or fasts shall only be reprimanded, unless they remain obstinately rebellious.” – Register of the Company of Pastors (Geneva, 1546)). However, the break from the Roman Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation is wholly another point to speak about in comparison to the Christmas celebration many desire to invoke today without any reference to the Roman Catholic Church. In any case, the appeal to men cannot bind the conscience of the Christian, as helpful they may be in their exegetical prowess. At this point you may wondering what my position is. It was needful to state the former arguments and positions before going onto what I believe is the crux of the argument against Christmas and other like “holy-days.” Knowing that one cannot utilize pagan origins, nor the opinions of men (perse), as arguments against the practice of Christmas, what biblical grounds would I have against it? If Christ was taken out of the picture altogether, XMAS would be acceptable to the Christian. Like Father’s day or Mother’s Day, holidays to exchange gifts and have parties together with family and friends is quite acceptable (except when those holidays interrupt or fall on the Lord’s Day). The contention that arises is when one places Christ within the Christmass scheme to use it as a day to commemorate and remember His birth, that it becomes a direct violation of the Regulative Principle of Worship. Upon the violation of this principle of worship lies the ground by which every Christian should see Christmass as abominable. It is true that extreme debt, excess financial strain, Christmas party debauchery, a-whoring after material wealth, unbridled children demanding certain gifts and throwing temper tantrums when they are refused them, and the like, also are added into the bag of those things which Christians should oppose during the “jolly season.” However, it is upon the principle of God’s command in worship that Christmas becomes detestable. I’m all for Frosty the Snowman, Jack Frost, winter wonderlands, chestnuts roasting on an open fire, exchanging presents, eating candy canes, enjoying really good egg-nog, stuffing stocking, watching “Elf” with James Caan and Will Ferrel, or Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer with that classic sung by Burl Ives, as well as all the other holiday festivities. Why? Well, they have nothing, in the way I am explaining here, to do with Jesus Christ and the birth story, or the incarnation. They do not violate, in any way, the Regulative Principle. It is necessary to explain, briefly, the Regulative Principle of Worship, and then also argue that high thoughts of Christ, or any kind of meditation on Christ, is worship – no matter how short or long that time is. First, the Regulative Principle teaches that worship is construed only by the direct commands of God in His Word. To allow into worship what is not expressly commanded in the Bible, whether that is for a day or for the regular Sunday service, is false worship. It is a worship fabricated by men, and this violates the principles of worship that God has commanded. For instance, if men say that drama or mime is acceptable in worship because God has not expressly commanded that it not be done, they are violating the Regulative Principle. God expresses states what He does command and does not need to expressly forbid what He does not. (That would take volumes.) Scriptural examples abound for this principle. Genesis 4:3-5 says this,
“And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the LORD. Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the LORD respected Abel and his offering, but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.”
God did not accept what Cain brought, though Cain may have brought it sincerely. Sacrifices were to be of blood, for without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. Cain’s heart was wrong, and his sacrifice was not what God had commanded of him. Another example is in Leviticus 10:1-3, which is a cornerstone for the Regulative Principle. It says,
“Then Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, each took his censer and put fire in it, put incense on it, and offered profane fire before the LORD, which He had not commanded them. 2 So fire went out from the LORD and devoured them, and they died before the LORD. 3 And Moses said to Aaron, “This is what the LORD spoke, saying: “By those who come near Me I must be regarded as holy; And before all the people I must be glorified.”” So Aaron held his peace.”
Here Nadab and Abihu offered something (strange fire) on the altar, but God had not expressly forbid them from doing so. God had only told them what they were supposed to do, not what they should not do as well. You may search all through the passage and never find one instance of God forbidding them not to offer this “strange fire.” Here we see God’s mind on the principle. God killed them for disobeying Him though God had not expressly forbidden the practice. This should cause all to stop and think about how we must be careful to know the mind of God on matters of importance such as worship. Another example is in 2 Samuel 6:3-7
“So they set the ark of God on a new cart, and brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill; and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, drove the new cart. And they brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill, accompanying the ark of God; and Ahio went before the ark. Then David and all the house of Israel played music before the LORD on all kinds of instruments of fir wood, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on sistrums, and on cymbals. And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.”
Uzzah did not want to see the ark of God fall into the mud. It was toppling on the ox cart that they were using to transport it. God had expressly stated that they were to transport the ark with poles, not on an oxcart. Numbers 4:6 and 15 says,
“Then they shall put on it a covering of badger skins, and spread over that a cloth entirely of blue; and they shall insert its poles…And when Aaron and his sons have finished covering the sanctuary and all the furnishings of the sanctuary, when the camp is set to go, then the sons of Kohath shall come to carry them; but they shall not touch any holy thing, lest they die.”
Uzzah did not use the poles expressly commanded by God; he used an ox cart. 1 Chronicles 15:13-15 states,
“For because you did not do it the first time, the LORD our God broke out against us, because we did not consult Him about the proper order.” So the priests and the Levites sanctified themselves to bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel. And the children of the Levites bore the ark of God on their shoulders, by its poles, as Moses had commanded according to the word of the LORD.”
Not only did Uzzah not use what was expressly commanded (the poles), rather, he used what he wanted (the ox cart). His transgression did not stop there. Uzzah also touched the ark because he did not want the mud to defile the sacred object. But the Lord killed him because the mud was cleaner than Uzzah. The principle is set in such passages above, and ratified in other passages such as Deuteronomy 4:1-2 which says,
“Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I teach you to observe, that you may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers is giving you. You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”
Also, Deuteronomy 12:30-32 says, “…take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, “How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it.” In these verses God is specific to inform the Israelites that they should not add or take away from the law, or sore judgments will come upon them. Two of the more poignant verses are from the lips of Christ and Paul. Jesus said, “These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men, (Matt. 15:8-9)” When men introduce their own ideas into worship, they have violated the Regulative Principle that Christ has given, even if Christ has not expressly forbidden it. Paul calls this “will-worship” in Colossians 2:23 which states, “These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, [translated literally “will-worship”] false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.” Here we see that self-imposed religion, or the worship of one’s own will, violates the principles God has expressly set, though the Bible may not expressly forbid such practices. Jeroboam did this very thing in 1 Kings 12:32-33, “Jeroboam ordained a feast on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, like the feast that was in Judah, and offered sacrifices on the altar. So he did at Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made. And at Bethel he installed the priests of the high places which he had made. So he made offerings on the altar which he had made at Bethel on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, in the month which he had devised in his own heart. And he ordained a feast for the children of Israel, and offered sacrifices on the altar and burned incense.” God did not command this. Jeroboam took this upon himself to institute. This pertained to worship and violated the Regulative Principle. Some may appeal here to the feast of Purim in the book of Esther saying that they imposed a time of worship. This is not the case at all. The feast of Purim was not worship. Esther 9:18, 26, and 28 state, “The Feast of Purim: But the Jews who were at Shushan assembled together on the thirteenth day, as well as on the fourteenth; and on the fifteenth of the month they rested, and made it a day of feasting and gladness…So they called these days Purim, after the name Pur. Therefore, because of all the words of this letter, what they had seen concerning this matter, and what had happened to them…that these days should be remembered and kept throughout every generation, every family, every province, and every city, that these days of Purim should not fail to be observed among the Jews, and that the memory of them should not perish among their descendants.” This was not worship. It was a day of feasting. It was a day of gladness, but not an institution of worship like Nadab and Abihu and their strange fire, or Jeroboam and his sacrifices. Some appeal to The Westminster Confession in their statement concerning lawful days of “thanksgiving” in order to appeal to a day of thanksgiving for Christmas. However, The Westminster Confession says the following, “The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear, the sound preaching and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith, and reverence, singing of psalms with grace in the heart; as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God: beside religious oaths, vows, solemn fastings, and thanksgivings upon special occasions, which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner. (WCF Chapter 21, Section 5; They use Esther 9:20-22 as a proof text for “and thanksgivings upon special occasions”, not for worship.) The Westminster Confession makes the distinction between worship which appears in the first part of the paragraph, and then separates other days of spiritual edification by the word “besides.” They are not the same, and appeal to them is unwarranted. We see then that God has set the Principles by which sinful men may approach him, and any addition or subtraction to that institutes a self-willed worship which is abhorrent to God. Secondly, we must define whether or not Christmass actually falls under the category of worship. Is setting aside a certain day, once a year to honor Christ’s birth, a violation of the Regulative Principle and worship? Apart from asking this question, the Christian should be the first to realize that giving gifts, Santa Claus, Christmas Trees, Yule Logs and the like, have absolutely nothing to do with the incarnation of Jesus Christ. The closest in any of these is the giving of gifts, but we do not give gifts to Christ as the Magi did (which was for a specific purpose) but rather, we give them to one another. How is this honoring to Christ? I have yet found anyone who can justify any of these things in a lawful connection to Christ and His Word. It just does not exist. Instead, they are following, blindly, the Roman Catholic institution of the Christ-mass. Check your history… In attaching homage to Jesus Christ and the honoring of His incarnation to Christmas, men are setting apart a solemn day of worship by their own accord. Churches go to great lengths to celebrate “the advent of our Lord”. They light candles, and confer with church tradition to make this a season where they especially remember His birth in the month of December. In doing this they are instituting a day, or series of days of worship (if there are special events ensuing) which are not instituted in Scripture and are additions to God’s prescribed rule of authority. The only day set by God in the Scriptures for solemn worship and remembrance of Christ in any way, is the Lord’s Day or Christian Sabbath. To create another day would violate the Regulative Principle. Men should never impose their ideas of worship on God and believe God will accept them. Whenever Christians have thoughts of Christ or of God, they are beginning to engage in worship. Jeremiah Burroughs in his book Gospel Worship defines worship simply as “thoughts about God.” The interaction of the mind of man to the mind of God, to think His thoughts after Him, is worship. The opposite of having thoughts of God and worshipping Him, is to suppress and remove God from the thoughts; Psalm 10:4 states, “The wicked in his proud countenance does not seek God; God is in none of his thoughts.” The Christian is to have his thoughts fixed upon God. We are to be living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to Him every minute of every day – but there are also times of public and private worship which take place at God’s command. Colossians 3:2 states, “Set your mind on the things above…” Isaiah 26:3 says that the righteous’ “mind is stayed on You.” Meditating and thoughtfulness about God is worship. Formal worship, gathering together as a body of believers in a church setting to hear preaching and teaching, etc., is commanded of God to His people. Private worship is still worship, though it is done in the home. In either case, creating a day for formal worship, such as Christmas, is a violation of the principles of worship. If one were to take one day a month to meditate on the incarnation in their private devotions, there would be no contention. It is the formalizing of a specific day to honor Christ which is the problem. Public or private worship is still to be regulated by God’s Word and not the imaginations of men’s minds. One final thought is important to add: If Christmas were wholly biblical, and centered around the worship of Christ, and the glorification and honor of God, why would the world enjoy it? The world loves Christmas. They revel in it. If it were something truly biblical, or something truly edifying to the soul, then they would hate it and would not be able to stand it. Isaiah 53:1-3 states,
“Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; and when we see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men.”
The Gospel of Jesus Christ, which the very purpose of the incarnation, is abhorrent to the world – they hate it. They reject the Gospel and despise Jesus. They do not desire nor love Him. But they love the holiday season. Some Christians desire to “reclaim” Christmas and put the “Christ” back in “Christ-mas.” But what the participating Christian has done is taken the world and adapted himself to it. He is to be salt and light, being transformed from the world, not giving into it. Not only does he break the principle of worship set in the Word of God by God Himself, but he also associates himself with the world; he adapts himself to their practices with a “Christian twist.” Moreover, as the Apostle James says, we know that “friendship with the world is enmity toward God,” (James 4:4). It is true, that on account of the Bible’s direct witness to the Regulative Principle, most of the good theologians and pastors of the church throughout history have rejected such practices as participating in Christmas, or Easter, or the like, until we have happened upon our more theologically lazy century. Defining worship and the Regulative principle is of utmost importance, and no Christian should be theologically lazy about what God requires of them. They should study the subject diligently that they would be able to give an answer for the hope that lies in them. 1 John 2:15-17,
“Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world–the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–is not of the Father but is of the world. And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.”
POST SCRIPT: This writer has received a number of letters, much like St. Nick, about Christ-mas. OK, they were really emails, not letters. But in today’s technologically savvy world, it’s much the same thing. No, no, these are not about what people would like for Christ-mas in terms of presents, but they are wondering whether they ought to celebrate Christ-mas at all at HOME apart from the church, or create some special time at HOME apart from anything the church fails to do or not do during “advent” and Christ-mas time. In thinking about how many Christians deal with “Santa Claus” and all that Xmas represents at HOME, there are some considerations to take into account that way heavily on this idea of “the holiday of Christ-mas.” Christians must continually think about how ideas that are formulated in our society affect the way culture works in and out of the church, and in and out of the home. The best case scenario is that a godly church does not mimic the world or its culture, but rather arrests that culture with the Gospel. In the instance of holidays and special days that may be part of the American Culture, or any culture for that matter, still, the Gospel should arrest those ideologies and submit them to a godly action. One must remember how things usually work out – what the church teaches usually filters into the homes of Christians . (Godly teaching should affect the church in a godly way, and unbiblical teaching or error hinders the work of the church). For example, if corporate worship includes something that violates the Regulative Principle of Worship, Christians that have thought through what God requires of His people in church should never teach their children, or anyone else in their family, that error. Parents must help their families “screen” things like that, even if it is an error propagated by a godly pastor. However, if one has a church that teaches that Christmas is not OK for corporate worship, then there should be no problem whatsoever developing some family “traditions” during the holiday season that surround things at HOME, and not church, on Christ’s incarnation. Those traditions, though, ought never to include “paganistic ideas” or that Christians should “recapture” those paganistic ideas for the sake of family fun. For example, the Christmas tree, in this instance, is a pagan religious idea (simply put) that has nothing to do, whatsoever, with Christ’s birth. Christians should not include Christ-mas trees in their homes if they are going to incorporate them into some religiously significant event. But teaching children, or family members about Christ’s birth during the month of December is also not prohibited by the Scriptures in any way. One simply must be careful not to equate the “worldly ideas” or “paganistic ideas” of Christ-mas with Jesus Christ. He simply does not belong there. The two do not mix. One could, for argument’s sake, teach their family about the birth of Jesus Christ at ANY time of the year. (And they should!) Some people believe Xmas trees, mistletoe, Santa, Rudolph, the Bumble and Frosty the Snowman are paganistic idols. They believe that taking those things out of Xmas and turning things to Christ, or introducing foreign ideas that have no place in the Christology of Jesus Christ to their family at “Christmas”, is OK. It is really the reverse. Santa is as much an “idol” as Nemo was in Finding Nemo, or “Jiminy Cricket” was in Peter Pan. If one has a problem with Santa, or his elves, then one must accordingly have a problem with any other fictional character from Johnny Tremain to the legends behind Davy Crocket. However, if parents are using Santa and his gifts to lie to their children, that is a very different matter. It is sinful against both their children and Jesus Christ to lie. Parents should not lie to their children at any time; especially about a fat man in a red suit that rewards children based on works. If someone wants to create some religiously significant time with their family as it is dictated in the Bible, there is no sin there. If, for example, a father wants to use the month of July each year to teach his family a four week teaching on the cross of Christ, he should do it. It could become a family tradition to do so. If a mother wanted to teach her children about the Holy Spirit in November, then by all means, she should do so. Christians, however, should be cautious to “equate” what is done at home with what the church will wrongly give a “stamp of approval” for during the season of “Christ-mas”. In other words, “Jesus is the reason for the Season” is just a load of sentimental bunk. Jesus Christ is not only Lord of the season, but He is Lord of every day and every minute of every day, and, in fact, upholds everything in every moment and is the One in whom “we live and move and have our being” every day of the year. His incarnation extends to every moment of every time in the monumental significance of human and creative redemption. The incarnation is not just for December 25th, July 8th or March 12th, dates that have absolutely no religious significance whatsoever, unless they fall on the Lord’s Day and are, in fact, observed as the Lord’s Day. Christians must be careful about how they use something lawful and good at a time when it can be misconstrued. The incarnation is lawful, good and theologically necessary for salvation. But December may be a “cliché” month to visit that topic. One may measure their bondage to that cliché by their ability or non-ability to use ANOTHER month to teach their family about the incarnation. Reader, could you celebrate the meanings that you hold in Christ-mas in, say, August, or February? If not, you may be more bound to the secularization of Romanism than you may be willing to believe. This writer continues to vote for taking Christ out of XMAS so there is no confusion on the issue, and instead will teach about the incarnation and birth of Christ ALL YEAR ROUND. In that way, every “theological” base is covered, and one may still be able to enjoy “Elf” on TV during December, a candy cane or two, and a nice honey baked ham during the secular holiday of Christ-mas – a fun time if one uses it lawfully.
1) Their feeling on anything overly showy is that it displays what is called "the spirit of the world." The SotW is an expression used to describe anything that is at odds with the doctrine of the Bible, including flashiness, materialism, and being a douchey gearhead.
2) They don't really care much about the environment as 'the end of the last days' is coming in just a few years and Jehovah God will fix the Earth after Armageddon.
3) They take no part in worldly politics, believing that Jesus is the one true king of the world. There is no official stand on nuclear power from the Organization...but if it keeps the cost of running the Organization down, I'm sure they support it.
I've gone preaching for at least 10 hours a month for 18 years, and let me tell you...there have only been one or two times that I've gone into a territory without looking at my Do Not Call list.
The Organization splits the neighborhood into 'territories' and each Saturday, groups of Witnesses ranging from 2-8 people are given a 'territory' to cover. On this card is a list of addresses of people that do not speak English, and a list of people who have asked not to be called back. They are called 'Opposers,' and they are people who actively try to disturb the preaching work. If you ask them not to call again and they knock on your door again, ask them again to be put on the Opposer List and threaten to call the police if they come back. You will never ever be bothered again.
I've had the cops called on me and my family numerous times for entering apartment buildings that we didn't live in. We usually just apologize and leave and move on to the next building. I've had a gun pulled out on me once when I was doing missionary work in West Virginia. Guy was sitting out on his porch and my dad approached him and asked him if he wanted to learn more about the Bible. The guy asked my dad if he remembered how he got in the property,to which my dad replied yes. The man pulled up a shotgun and just nodded to us, and we got the hint pretty quickly.
Initially, it began when I started asking the elders questions about flaws in certain doctrines...such as why Matthew mistranslates dozens of Jewish prophecies in his book, or why there seems to be evidence that humans existed before 4000 B.C.
There came a point where I was asked to stop asking questions...and even when my questions were answered, I was always told to ignore worldly sources and read from the organization's books. The Organization will always tell you to go to their literature because they've been engineering it specifically for people who have similar questions to you for years and years and can call upon shady sources and quote mines to back up any belief.
That's when I started actually following through the sources in the footnotes, and saw that 99% of the time, the quote was out of context...or the author believed in the point of view opposite that which the society was attempting to validate.
When I was old enough to start applying for colleges I was discouraged by all of the brothers in my hall and told to consider pioneering or Bethel service (I was in a lot of assemblies and even a drama growing up!)
I grew sick of people trying to decide my life-course for me and I'm now trying to figure out a way of leaving the organization while maintaining as healthy of a relationship with my parents as I can.
Honestly, go through the Evolution booklet that came out like 3 years ago at the District Convention, point to a random footnote and view the source, and see that what the Society wrote down is a deliberate attempt to mislead you.
That's all the proof I needed.
EDIT:Link to www.thebattles.net Here's a pretty detailed review of the latest anti-evolution booklet from the Organization that was given out at a District Convention 2 years ago.
(District Conventions are 3-day long (Friday-Sunday) gatherings of multiple congregations of JWs from an area. The Organization produces 3 days of speeches. Each day runs from 9-12 and then 1-4/5, and you all do is sit in your seat and listen to other JW's give speeches, watch interviews, and maybe even a drama where people dress up and re-enact scenes from 'Bible times')
The Organization will often do something like releasing a book on a Saturday, then on Sunday morning have a 'demonstration' on-stage where 2 people will re-enact how to go about 'placing' the literature (read: leaving it with someone) in common scenarios such as sitting in class.
I actually have an 8th grade history teacher to thank because she taught me to never accept things at face-value and to always question the things you learn.
I had a teacher in 8th grade named Ms. Hahn that taught me to question everything around me. This was around the time where everyone around me was beginning to assert some independence, and I decided to critically look at all of the teachings that were going on in the Kingdom Hall...especially the ones that I had some doubts about because of things I learned in school (read: evolution/humans exisiting >6000 years ago.)
There was one elder in my kingdom hall that was very intelligent (or the only person in my Kingdom Hall to have had gone to college) and I always used to approach him for answers to my questions. There got to a point where I was asking the 'wrong' kinds of questions, such as why archaeological evidence existed for Neanderthals ("just what exactly does it mean to be human anyways?") or why certain prophecies saw constant changes in interpretation ("the light continually gets brighter."
I saw through the facade almost immediately after that and realized that these were a people, though resolute in their faith, that would accept anything that the Governing Body would tell them at face level just because it's how they lived their lives.
As I grew older I really wanted to become my own person...but I would always have people from the Organization watching me when I was out with my non-Jehovah's Witness friends, and they would report me to my parents if I were ever caught doing something I wasn't supposed to do. (smoking/cursing/wearing improper clothing/being intimate with a girl)
Short Answer: It was a gradual disillusionment but I have 3 or 4 stories about large events in my life that made me realize how terrible the organization actually was.
Back in my early High School days I used to wrestle. During 10th grade I was selected to give an interview about myself and how I deal with the pressures of being a Jehovah's Witness in schools and how I defend my faith. Needless to say I was at a time in my life where I was doing everything but being very faithful, including after-school sport activities...which are frowned upon by the organization (it means more time with non-Jehovah's Witnesses and fosters a competitive spirit!) So I come late to a rehearsal for the interview on a Saturday right after a Wrestling tournament. The elder (leadership position in JW)with whom I am working asks me why I'm late... Me: Oh, I was a tournament and it went a bit longer than scheduled, sorry Him: A chess tournament? Me: No, a...wrestling tournament. Him: Oh, okay then.
He didn't seem displeased or angry...but the next time I went to church, my parents and I were asked to sit in the back room of the congregation and one of my Kingdom Hall's elders told me that they had received a complaint that I had been wrestling and that I would have to stop immediately.
They reasoned that because I was selected to be an example, it would reflect poorly on them if any of my teachers or someone who knew me from the wrestling team were to come to the meeting. I almost failed gym class that semester because my parents just wouldn't allow me to go to practice or the meets anymore.
All of the Kingdom Halls are built by Jehovah's Witness volunteers who may or may not have received training in building places. Kingdom Halls are built as cheaply as possible while still maintaining a decent structure. As a personal anecdote, the Kingdom Hall where I attended for most of my childhood actually started sinking into the ground because the foundation was done very poorly. So yeah...sometimes they suck.
They are done very quickly because there are so many people who help. Building a new Kingdom Hall in a community is an interesting experience. All the Witnesses who are capable of helping will 'volunteer' their time to going to the site for 5-6 hours a day on weekends to help build things. I put volunteer in quotes because the elders will usually guilt a person who is capable of helping but not by pointing out that God knows how much you are capable of.
I've gotten away with a lot of things..the elders have never found out about any of my nefarious deeds. The funniest story I think was during one time when I visited my parents after freshman year in college, I had to go preaching with them. I had gone out the night before and got home at like 3 in the morning and was pretty hungover. Before we go out preaching, we meet in a person's home and organize ourselves, read and discuss a text from the Bible, and talk about strategies to actually talk to people.
Some people have answered the door under the influence of marijuana...and there are sometimes where a person will answer the door mid-disciplining their children...which is always depressing to listen to.
There was one time where a guy had some literature and asked to do a trade with me, but I refused because I thought that obviously I had the correct information and he was being influenced by the Devil.
They're taught that being a Jehovah's Witness is the only way for a person to truly be serving the right God. They think that any other religious organization is ruled by Satan the Devil, who is attempting to mislead people so that they won't be saved when Armageddon comes and every unfaithful person is destroyed.
You get disfellowshipped by doing something that is condemned by the organization and are unrepentant for doing it. This ranges from things like getting caught having pre-marital sex (a big-one) to someone in the organization finding you cursing or giving blood or spreading lies in the congregation about someone.
I know HOW to get disfellowshipped, I'm just trying to figure out the best way of doing it. (partially for the lulz, partially for not being disowned by my family)
Yeah I've had pre-marital sex. The point is that nobody in the organization knows. They claim to take direction from God and have his spirit blessing their actions...so I'm just seeing how many years it takes them to mobilize.
In my hometown the Jehovah's Witnesses know who I am by face and name...so when I'm out and about I'll still always be seen by them, and perhaps they'll tell the people who are in positions of power and I would be considered lost and they would stop tracking me in name then.
I've been making a very conscious effort in the past 2 years to develop a personal spirituality. I currently have no idea what I believe in at the moment, but I would like to think that there is some higher power.
I think that there are many Jehovah's Witness teachings that are considerably outdated (not believing in Evolution, Noah's Flood being an actual event, Adam and Eve, believing in Old Testament prophecies having fulfillments today, etc.)
I'll probably have some sort of contact with them after college. Even though they are forbidden by the organization to talk to me at all, I've had many a conversation to them about my fears concerning being trapped and they told me that they wouldn't completely cut me out. In fact, they are aware of a lot of non-JW teaching I believe in and non-JW things that I do.
Going to college in itself is a very non-JW thing and higher education is condemned at every large gathering of Jehovah's Witnesses and in their publications; my parents allowed me to opportunity to get the best education I possibly could because they weren't offered the same opportunity as children and knew that I would benefit from it.
They think the world is going to shit and that the only thing that can save them is God. They think that Revelation talks about a coming end-of-days that will decimate the world and destroy anyone who isn't a Jehovah's Witness.
They really do think that they are saving lives by going preaching constantly and converting people. They really are an interesting and wonderful people...lost in their own delusions and reduced to sheep however.
Jehovah's Witnesses take the Bible very seriously and consider this one of the most sacred commands from God. Though in context it was discussing the consumption of blood, they've taken this to mean that whole blood in itself is sacred and should never be ingested or transfused.
No. They can't eat anything with blood in it. This means for my entire life I've always had to eat steak well-done until I came to college. It fucking sucked.
That's the point! It's the principle behind the scripture, that being to respect blood. If you can cook the red out, they reason that you should if you truly love God.
Jehovah's Witnesses try to stay as distant from anything related to politics or nationalism as they can, because they believe that Jesus Christ is the only true king, and that all earthly authority figures are placed there to rule 'Satan's System.' I always stood up but never crossed my hand and my heart and never said the words. I still don't know the National Anthem or the Pledge very well to this day.
I don't think I've ever heard of this before! As someone who was born into the organization...if it is something they do they're very secretive about it.
He definitely comes off as someone who was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and left the organization earlier in his life without getting baptized.
Jehovah's Witnesses are taught from an early age not to associate with anyone who isn't a Jehovah's Witness, and there's a certain type of paranoia you learn at an early age because of the number of people that are always judging your every action and will take you to the elders for discipline if you misbehave. I learned very early to adopt a facade when I was amongst other people because I was taught that I was inherently different from them in some way that made me saved in the eyes of God and them damned.
IDK, he has a kind of awkwardness that I can really relate to.
I'm not sure what kind of relationship you have with your parents, but for me it's less about 'growing a spine' and more that I want to keep a good relationship with them, because I know that they care about me.
Gilead graduates are the actual missionaries, and they have to attend a school of sorts for a year where they are trained in the language of the country that they are going to be working in and how to preach better. The school is open to couples in their late twenties through late forties I believe.
I'm dealing with a lot of other more pertinent matters in my life right now and don't really have the time to explore my spirituality. I have been meditating a bit, but that's as far as I've gotten.
I've spent a large portion of my life actively tuning out the meetings...and whenever I would try and clear my mind my parents would tell me to stop because it would allow 'demons to get inside of me.' I've really enjoyed meditating because it allows me a way of being fully in the present.
Early in the book of Revelation there's a scene depicting Jesus calling 12k people from each of the 12 tribes of Israel...which adds up to 144k, which (while not taking the from Israel part literally) Jehovah's Witnesses take to be a literal number.
Yep. Also, it's very shitty for a person to be told that people who aren't Jehovah's Witnesses are evil and controlled by Satan and only see these outsiders as people they are trying to save who aren't accepting the message because their hearts are evil.
I mean when you put your entire life and soul into following a religious dogma and have seen some tangible benefits in your life from making living by Bible principles the most important thing in your life, you tend to give the organization a little leeway with prophecies and promises...
Yeah. I have a lot more worse things that I've gotten away with...but seeing as this is the internet and I did post a link to this AMA from my Twitter and my Facebook, I think it's best not to share my deepest darkest secrets with people who may know me.
Nope. They claim that the only representation needed is God's. I mean if there are multiple Witnesses involved obviously they'll ask for everyone''s opinions...but it's usually a my word versus theirs ordeal.
My ex-girlfriend lived in the territory where I preached...so there were a few occasions where I would slip away from the group (one of my friends who also wasn't really into the organization used to 'go on' 'return visits' with me) and meet up with her for a few seconds when her parents weren't home. You know, just to see her. There was one day though where the floor she lived on was assigned to my group..and so I went up to her door with a sister and knocked on her door...and her mother came to the door. And it was the most awkward experience of my life...I was blushing so much I looked like a fucking tomato as I tried my hardest to leave literature with her mom. Immediately after we leave the door the sister turns to me and says "so how long have you had a crush on her for?" Needless to say at school the next day she told me I was to never ever ever EVER knock on her door again.
It's kind of impossible to have an honest conversation with the elders because they are always looking for a reason to discipline you. As a child I was never able to talk to my parents honestly about my life, and talking to the elders at that age would have led to my being disfellowshipped while still being a minor and having to deal with not beng able to talk to my parents...which would have been awful.
I've lost my faith in the JW version of the God. I've had some spiritual experiences in the past year as I've dealt with myriads of unfortunate circumstances.
In my experience it's pretty much the same...though those who disassociate themselves are thought of more as betrayers and conscientiously abandoning the organization.
We’ve often chosen not to sing certain songs because we didn’t believe the content to be theologically accurate or glorifying to God. At the same time, we sometimes sing lyrics and music written or produced by churches we wouldn’t want to disciple the saints. We don’t need to be paranoid, but we do need to be vigilant. Masks, vaccines, bar-code scanners, microchips - none of these are the "mark of the beast." Please stop worrying about this, folks. Rev 13 says: "..forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. If we knew that our music originated in the right place, our questions on this issue begin to fade. Many churches are sitting on amazing talent and gifts but do not use what God has provided. Take advantage of the autonomy that Christ allows each individual assembly to have and take ownership of creating your own songs and music. 5. Bethel loves this guy. There is no excuse for this, and if you are trying to justify this in your mind right now, you are part of the problem. Benny Hinn is a showman and a huckster, and he knows what to say in order to retain as large an audience as possible. Benny Hinn recently made a special appearance at Bethel. Bethel music drew me to Bethel, in fact I moved to Redding, mesmerized by the passion and beauty of its music. For 2 years I experienced jarring teaching, not remotely biblical which is the test of truth, with the phrase “we go off the map” meaning the bible is less relevant than our personal experience. In our article, Why Hillsong Music is Dangerous for Your Church, we explain how the CEO of Hillsong, Brian Houston, attempts to use their music program to build an empire that he basically sits on top of. He “sees” a large, global church centered around worldly culture and music, with the purpose of influencing the world with his watered Hillsong Church does not exist to preach the Word of God, and to draw people to Christ, bringing glory to His holy name--it exists to draw people to their music, making them money, and giving them power, and giving glory to their man-centered, man-built pseudo-spiritual empire. Brian Houston clearly preaches a false gospel. Southern Baptist leader, Albert Mohler, stated, There seems to be a rise in some pastors sound in doctrine and other believers warning us to stay away and stop listening to music related to these churches because in some ways, we are supporting these churches by funding them when we listen to their music. Is it wrong to sing songs from Bethel if they are theologically correct? In this episode of Redeeming Truth, Pastors Costi Hinn, Dale Thackrah, and Kyle Swanson provide insight into the dangers of supporting ministries like Bethel [and Hillsong, Jesus Culture and Elevation Music], that have a false understanding of who Christ is.. If you are looking for theologically accurate worship music to Bethel Music will lead many people back to that cauldron. That is its purpose. Bethel Music does not go around the country putting on concerts to showcase talent, to entertain people, or to make lots of money. Just because some of the Bethel music “sounds” good, or even has good words, doesn’t mean that the purpose behind it is good
